Episode 137: Strong Hearts: Establishing Love and Connection with Our Children with Dr. Sally Goldberg

Children  0:00  
We think you should know that Imperfect Heroes podcast is a production of Little Hearts Academy, USA.

DJ Stutz  0:09  
Welcome to another episode of Imperfect Heroes - Insights into Parenting, the perfect podcast for imperfect parents looking to find joy in their experience of raising children in an imperfect world. And I'm your host DJ Stutz.

Welcome, this is Episode 136, the Imperfect Heroes. And I'm so glad you've chosen to spend the next few minutes with us. Today, we just have such an amazing topic. Last week, we opened up with me just talking about children and how we want to ensure that they are feeling loved, and how that gets all started. And we're going to be continuing with that theme of love. First half kids feel love, we're going to talk about how parents work through that when they're little I've got a mommy coming on next week that is just in the throes of raising her kids. And I think she's actually expecting another one as we speak. And so that's going to be a fun conversation. And then we'll end up with teaching our children about different kinds of love that you have love for mom and dad, you have love for your teacher, you might have love for aunt and uncle and friends. And that's a different love that you have for those types of people, and how to delineate that and how to show that appropriately. And so we're going to have a just a fun month with this theme. 

So before we get started, though, I just want to remind everybody that if you're not getting our newsletter, and we only send it out twice a month, but if you're not getting it, you sure do want to get it so that you're up on all of the things that we have going on. So other podcasts that I am a guest on, I've just had one drop this week. And so you'll get in on other podcasts, I've got a new book coming out this summer. And then you're gonna get little tidbits and information on what's going on with events. And just all the fun things that are going on. You also get some other extra parenting tips in the newsletter as well based on our themes. And so if you want to get in on that, and it is free, of course, then you just go to the website, which is www.LittleHeartsAcademyUSA.com. And you're going to be able to just sign up for that. And you'll start getting all that information. So I encourage you to do so. 

All right, today, if you look at our beautiful guest who is here with their big smiles, is Dr. Sally Goldberg. And she has her doctorate in one of my favorite topics, early childhood education. And Sally want to introduce yourself. And tell us a little bit about what you have going on. And then we're going to start talking about this love connection. Well,

Dr. Sally Goldberg  3:14  
DJ, thank you so much. One thing you know for sure this is a topic that I love to talk about. So it's very exciting for me to be able to have this opportunity. And what I do now is mostly writing and speaking before groups. So in terms of writing, I've created a monthly blog. And that's available. And it's always around a topic that fits with the season. So as you know, this season is about love, which is the perfect topic for what we're talking about. And I have a blog post, which talks about how of self esteem is the basis for any kind of love. Because a preparation for loving other people is a way of loving yourself the most important part first, so talk about how parents can help children develop their own self esteem as an easy peasy way of having them show love to other people will come naturally. So I do the blog. And then I have a flyer of the month as well that's available on request that goes with the monthly blog. And it was my pleasure, pleasure, pleasure to send these out. So that's my new mission is to spread the word about some things that are so so important in parenting and early parenting that have somehow gotten away with the population. And I'm doing what I can to bring those back. So that's the basis of what I do and I also present before group so writing and speaking is a love of mine and somehow I pull it all together and I'm able to do it that right now as well. So I would like to start with showing you this. If I'm about a topic, then I was thinking about all the different ways that I might say my message. But I'm going to start with this. So this is a rattle, a baby rattle. And I found this many, many, many years ago. So I was out enjoying life as a young married person with a new baby with all the exuberance in the world. It was a finish not like soonish but like from Simmons finished furniture store, looking for a lamp from my house. And then all of a sudden, I see a corner of my eye way ahead, I set of rounded shelves. And I'ma shelves, it said educational toys for babies. So this comes back many years. I've never heard of that before. What in the world is an educational toy for a baby? That doesn't make sense to me, babies are babies, they play they do whatever they do, what's this word education in there. So I put my lamp looking aside for the moment, went all the way to the back of the room and started to look at the shelves closer. And the owner of the shop came up to me and he said, may I help you? I said, What is an educational toy for a baby. And then he took this off the shelf. And he said, every other rattle that you can buy for a baby. And this is back in time, the baby can't see what makes the noise. And this toy was created. So with me we could see. So he was referring to rattles like this. So in modern times, we switched over through rattles like this. Yes, babies can see what makes the noise. So in a way, what we take for granted, it's come a very long time ago when they weren't like that. And now this one shows that kind of progression. So anyway, that was so intriguing to me here. I had a baby and he wasn't he I said, Well, I don't want my baby to miss that. I said, I'll take it. And then I said to him, do you have anything else? And he said, Sure. And so that was the first lesson that what's going on in the baby's head is very important, not to be missed. And any way that you can be the teacher and the bearer of this important information about what's going on in the world, then you do it. And so I did want to share that with you. Because I thought that was the best way to say how important every moment is, and that you as a parent can really make the best of your time if you know it's important. And you'll really keep a baby in a stroller in a carrying case. It's covered up and not paying any attention. If you don't know that it's very important to do just the opposite.

DJ Stutz  8:33  
Yeah, so important. And we know that babies minds, actually, the truth is those minds are buzzing and going and learning even before they're born.

Dr. Sally Goldberg  8:44  
I'm so glad you said that. Because the two most important things that are happening in a broad way for the baby are the self esteem development. And there are many ways to do that. And also this bonding and attachment with the first and most important person, the parent and really the mother case, she has the inborn power to deliver the most important messages of security and everything else. And so in truth, even though most people don't know or think about it, it's the arts in pregnancy. That baby is getting all the messages in every way, about security, about love about the environment out there. Six months of gestation the baby can hear and all the other environmental input is there. So like if you're pregnant and you think it's important to eat more than once a day, you're making a mistake, because if you know that normal nutrition is best, at least three to four times a day, you'll take care to make sure you do that. And anytime you're taking care of yourself. When you're pregnant. You're taking care of your body. So if you're single They won. And you know that it's important to move every hour if you can you make sure you do it. When if you don't know that, you won't be doing that. There are concrete ways to turn these messages into a reality for you and your baby. Right.

DJ Stutz  10:16  
And so I burst for and then adopted our fifth. And yeah, yeah, to five. Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, I'm the oldest of seven. My husband's the youngest of nine. And I have like, one brother has eight. My sister is seven. We have a couple of six. I mean, yeah, I have seven D nieces and nephews.

Yeah, it is lucky. And we love them all. And they're not all cute little ones. You know, my husband was an uncle when he was three. But one of the things that we have seen in through adoption, and so I have cousins that are adopted, I have a nephew that's adopted as well as my daughter. And we both adopted out of foster care. My daughter was 12, when we adopted her, and my nephew was, well, they got him and he was almost two, when they got him, I had originally been his foster mom, and then my sister wound up adopting them. And there was a lot of trauma that happened in his life that first, you know, basically two years of his life. And so there's been a struggle, as with my daughter with attachment disorders, and the ability to cognitively follow that, you know, we talked about cause and effect. But all of those things are things that they learn when they are little. And when those emotions and that feeling of safety is disrupted. It affects their abilities to understand different things as they go through their life as they get older. And so one of the things that I really push with the parents I coach is that kids can't show love until they feel loved. And they can't feel loved. Unless they feel safe. They have to feel that safety in their environment and in the the emotions between their parents. And that whole self esteem comes from that. And so I think that you bring up so many important concepts of them learning things at this very, very early age that a lot of parents and we were talking about this earlier, how a lot of parents just don't have maybe the education or whatever to understand that first month, then the three months is a big milestone. And that first year is huge on how they are going to look at life for the rest of their life.

Dr. Sally Goldberg  12:55  
I'm so glad you brought up so many different wonderful things. So one of them is the word relationships. It turns out that in today's day and age, there are big problems for teens and young adults with relationships. And those problems have led to what they call in our society, I don't I'm sorry to report this a mental health crisis, that there's addictions, there's depression, there's suicide, there's crime and violence, there's mass shooting, that these are real, I don't even like saying the words. And what the professionals are telling us that's causing these terrible things to happen is poor relationships. So when we hear that we think, well, when does it start with this concept of safety that DJ is talking about that you're talking about? And this concept of love, the same one, feeling love, and then once you feel love for yourself, and then you can show love, and you can show love to others. So here's kind of a circuitous way that I'm counting to something. Relationships are like the circles that happen when you throw a pebble in a pond, these concentric circles that go out. So the first and most important is the mother, child, parent, child. Those are complicated terms these days, but mother child, parent child, that's the strongest and starts in the beginning. And you are explaining about foster children and the devastation and then orphans happens in the lives that you can't make up for. So if you do have a small baby, and then you do have the opportunity to think about building this Relationship, strong, strong, strong bonding and attachment. And so back to those circles, you have this very strong one. And then what comes next. So you have grandparents, so you have strong parents, and grandparents or some substitution for them, where unfortunately, we're four shouldn't say and for the way life is today, there's like two substitutes for the what I'm saying. But the basics are grandparents, so parents, grandparents, and then aunts, uncles, and cousins. So they're all part of building the strength for that child. And here's what's so exciting about them. And you, just you explain amazing things. means in reality that fits into all of these theories and ideas. So each of those relationships provide something different. So even if there's substituted by another person, being an aunt, or a different one being your grandma, doesn't matter. But they all provide a certain kind of relationship, just like you explain, that's loving. And that's the formula. So here's that an extra little touch about that. Not only is it loving, it's different personalities. And that is wonderful. So in your life, you have people that are strong, you have people that are weak, you have people that are old, you know, people that are young, you have a reality of real life, because everybody's different. So these people if they can possibly be in your support group in your family, provide in a loving way, all those different personalities. So what I call that is your training ground, your training ground for future relationships, you're introduced to all those complications and complexities within the framework of love. And that is what helps to build such a solid foundation for young children. Yeah,

DJ Stutz  17:06  
you're exactly right. And so, you know, I had a lot of those complex things you described. Yeah, five brothers and one sister a lot of personalities. And even though we were the only ones of all my aunts and uncles and my grandparents who did not live in Oregon, everyone was in Oregon. My dad got his doctorate and was a professor at UCLA. So we were there, but they were still involved in our lives, we still spent a lot of time going up. In fact, I met my husband, because he was my cousin's best friend. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1  17:44  
No safety with that, yeah. But

DJ Stutz  17:47  
when you have an only whether by choice, or whether, because that's just how it turned out, I think that it's important for you to make sure that you're expanding, so that your child has that opportunity to show love to receive love to argue, and to state their case, whether it's with close friends that they see often, or cousins or whatever it is, but you're giving them that broad opportunity that you were talking about, of having that expanded relationships, where they have different personalities that they have to deal with, and all of those things where I have to negotiate whether I'm gonna get to play with this toy or not, or those kinds of things, that they have those opportunities and don't miss out because there are one and they don't have those other opportunities. And there are tons of ways to make sure that those opportunities are there, even if they are an only at home. Yeah, sounds

Dr. Sally Goldberg  18:45  
like the most important thing is for a parent to feel educated, and then secure about the leadership that he or is supply. Yeah, because that security then provides secure with a young child,

DJ Stutz  19:01  
right. So let's talk for just maybe a second of some of the things that a parent can do. Well, I'm a big advocate for right at birth that skin to skin contact with starting to develop that relationship from the first moments of birth, and then maybe moving on to once they are starting to become mobile. That's a little scary time, especially for first time parents. And then even in the toddler years, it's like, oh my gosh, my cute baby is now a monster what happened? And so we're dealing with temper tantrums and big emotions and how to keep that relationship strong and positive and going. So what advice do you have, I guess, for our parents as we kind of go through some of those stages. Oh, I

Dr. Sally Goldberg  19:47  
love that opportunity. You put your arms up and you said holding and touching. So there's a few basics that you can start and should start with right away from the first moment, and that whole being hugging and touching. And right now we are at risk of parents not being able to do that for many different reasons. So again, that term being educated and knowing that if you have an opportunity, that's your first choice. And so the an example of would be the other day, I was watching a new mom at a bagel shop restaurant, and a new mom came in. And I always love to see new moms, and they're always trying to talk to babies, whenever I see them. Anyway, she was doing the wonderful thing in her mind the right thing. And you could see she was not doing anything that she thought wasn't right. But she was carrying her baby in this infancy. And the baby was just kind of being moved in irregular directions, and not really feeling that comfortable, because I could see that, and she had an alternative is with a very small baby to be holding instead. So there's times you can't hold your baby. And that's what infant seats are for, to be able to put them down in a safe place. But caring is not one of the important things to be doing for your baby. It's a detriment. And so that's what you just said extra time hugging and holding is very important. And related to that is overuse of the pacifier. This is a physical plastic distraction given to very small babies who could easily be soothed by being held and hugged. So again, not knowing that the pacifier is not just to be part of life. And it's not, it's only to be used by its name, when you can't somehow calm your baby in any kind of normal touching way. That's okay. And therefore, it's not accidentally extended power into two year old time and three year old time. That's not appropriate for that device. But we have that all the time. So you bring up such an important thing, that small actions all the time that are being recorded in the brain are doing things to baby that really will hurt later on. This relationship concept starts with that very concept that you mentioned, holding, hugging and loving well, and I found

DJ Stutz  22:38  
there's so many great products on the market right now. Those slings, they're like made out of fabric. And so you're free, and the babies, they're close to your heart close to your body. And it's actually easier. Because usually it's the baby carriers, what's connected oftentimes to their car seat, right, so you just push the button and pull it out. But yeah, it hurts your back to carry it around for long and it's uncomfortable, but to just put your sling on, throw the kiddo in there. And those slings can work. I mean, it depends on your child on how long they are going to be tolerant, I guess of it, a more active child is probably going to want more room earlier on but a snuggly child, they'll put up with it as long as you're willing to carry them. But it's actually when the kids are little in in that first year, what a better way to have them close to you, you're feeling them. And it's actually a lot less weight, those things are clunky, they're hard to carry around. And I love the secondhand stores. They're my good friends. So once upon a child or I don't I don't know if they have them in your area, but they have all the secondhand stores where you can go and they're like almost some of them are brand new, or you can't tell any difference. And you can get them for very low in the cost. And you can get some really great stuff. But I love those and you can do your housework you can up work on the computer, if you're doing a home business or working from home, there are a ton of ways that you can do that. And the baby's right there, and to build in that relationship all the time.

Dr. Sally Goldberg  24:15  
So it'll be perfect. And it's making me think of another related concept about hugging and holding. There's moving now babies are supposed to be moving from the start. So they need to be put down and as free as possible. Even very little babies. We are mobile people and they may be mobile. And so what I've noticed with a lot of new babies situations, there's the baby swing, so parent can put the baby in the baby swing the rock and play and they think that they've got a wonderful piece of equipment, and they do but the most important and first piece of equipment is the rocking play that comes from the leather. This is all only for when you can't do that. And so then a corollary is putting the baby down to move. So I have been also observed in the new baby life, there's a that carry the car seat and the carrying seat, that swing and all of these equipment keeps the baby from being mobile. And there's babies that are in these strollers that have seats for long periods of time. And they stay like that. So if I go and I smile, and I don't even get a response, because they're too used to just being put in that position. So I'm more than happy, again, to be talking about these topics that you're bringing up the hug that touched the holding ability to move and become themselves and look around and not be covered up by a hood or whatever is for so long in our lives. Yes, it's just to be aware of these kinds of things we're talking about can change everything for the future of that child.

DJ Stutz  26:06  
Right? Well, not speaking of being mobile and moving around, they do that eventually, then, and then it gets exciting, great, because now you're worried about them grabbing things and pulling things down on them or getting into things that cause a mess, or you're worried about the plugs. I had one son, my youngest son, I had, you know, all those plug covers, like a good little mommy. Right? And they drove him to district that doesn't belong there. So if I had the plug covers in, he would try to pull. No, this isn't right, that doesn't belong there. But if I left them uncovered, he'd leave him alone. And so sometimes it's knowing your child and knowing what what they're capable of and where their thoughts are. And so what may be typically thought of as, oh, no, this is the safest thing. Well, for Christian, of course, Christian. But he just thought, no, that that's not right, that doesn't belong there. And so it would increase his attention. So we may think that we're getting things set up, and then we get sometimes we're tired, we've been cleaning, we've been working, and now we're cleaning and you made a mess. And so then we get upset with them for doing what they're supposed to be doing is investigating and thinks. And so now we're introducing boundaries. Another way, though, for our children to feel safe, is to know I can't do this. And I can do that. And this boundary is I can count on mom and dad. So even when they're tired, or they're in a bad mood, or they're not feeling well, or whatever, the boundary stays the same. And that helps them feel safe, because they know they can count. They're not having to gauge how does she feel today? What's their mood today, and they can just know, this is what I can count on? What are some things then that we can do to make sure that we're setting boundaries, but we're also giving them the freedom to be investigators and explorers and checking things out, and we're checking our emotions, when you know, we're tired, and they just made another mess? How can we build that relationship in that time,

Dr. Sally Goldberg  28:17  
this is another wonderful area to bring up. And it brings to mind this particular phrase, be fair, firm, like positive, they're positive, and start this from day one. So when you want your child to have boundaries, you are actually in charge of setting them from the beginning. So they're absorbing this confidence that you're giving by being fair to what's happening, firm by expectations that are proper, and normal and age appropriate. And then positive, because any boundaries that you are setting. And the research and the theories about all this is the need to start at birth. So the first three months or newborn stage, when you're not thinking about any kind of responsibility that you might have just reacting is overlooking this kind of guidance that you can be providing all the time through the first three months and then the second three months when things get to be a little more interactive between the baby and then the third, three months when other people are involved and so on. So there's the ticket that can be most helpful all the time. While it's not a specific intervention to be used all the time. It's one giant intervention to keep in your mind. as a new parent, and the growing parent, I can be fair, I can be firm, and I can be positive. And by instilling that kind of relationship with the baby, you are protecting them in the way that you're describing, not protecting them by a plug, but protecting them by their own knowledge of what's appropriate, and what's not. And then they become their own guides to how they should be behaving. So that's a terrific example of what the parent can do. What they feel, is what they can deliver a message about to the baby and the baby's best protection, what they have inside. Right?

DJ Stutz  30:44  
Well, and I saw this study, and this was back when I was in college. So you know, who knows? But we were talking about discipline in one of my classes, and how even at three months old, you and I both wear glasses, what a little baby do go right for the glasses, right? And that's probably one of the first things that you'll set a boundary on, or if you have longer hair or earrings. Right? Great. Ooh, ah, right. And they think that's really cool. And they'll go for it. They're not being naughty. They're not trying to hurt you. They're just curious, but they can't have my glasses. That's not good. And so you can get mad at them. No, no, don't touch those. Some parents will even you know, slap their hand over it, right? No, don't touch those. Our you can just say no, no, don't touch those, you know, and then distract them with something else for them to hold. And so no, no, we don't touch those. But here's your rattle, or here's whatever something else that you can give them to hold. And the study that I was looking at, showed that if you just distract them and give them something else to hold, it's going to take on average, anywhere from 100 to 400 repetitions for the child to understand and get oh, yeah, okay, we don't touch mommy or daddy's classes. The interesting thing was the study that said that the parents would might slap a hand, that's not a hard slap, you know? But it's just like, No. And the parents who did that? How many times did they have to have a repetition before the child actually understood and got it 100 to 400 times the exact same? So then the question becomes, which is going to better enhance the relationship between the parent and child, it's going to take the same amount of time, whether you are kindly saying no, no, we don't touch that, and then distract them with something else for them to hold, or whether you're going to slap their hand, it's going to take the same amount of time, which is going to make your relationship with that child better.

Dr. Sally Goldberg  32:56  
And this is also a wonderful example of something a parent might not think about. And that's becoming a preventionist. So it preventionist acts and does things that prevent difficulties in the future. So one of the wonderful prevention type techniques, weeks that there are in an ongoing fashion, is responding positively, to very good things that are happening. So it's very easy to overlook, they always say, catch the child being good, it's hard to do that, you have to remember to do that. But if you remember to do that, you are paying positive attention. And so the more positive attention that you can remember to pay just in the normal life, then you are fostering more positive things to happen. So the corollary is if you're not paying attention to the positive things, and children want attention, if they can't get positive attention, negative attention is the next best thing. So that's what's happening in many cases, that they're trying to get your attention. Now there are different things to get it to be not do what we call, not doing the right thing, when we could be a preventionist and building in more positive behavior. And in the first year, this is what's really exciting. There's so many milestones of development in the first year. So the first one is the baby holds up their head all with the babies holding up their head. Oh, the baby's pushing up. Oh, the baby's rolling over. The baby's rolling over. These are intuitively exciting to the parent and this kind of positive response to the smallest thing tells the baby oh my gosh, all I did was put A sharp, and they think I'm terrific. And they think I'm terrific. All I did was poor babble. And they think I'm terrific. So you get the idea, this building of self esteem, just by being who they are, because that's what dailies are. And then you reinforce that. So the the new lesson in there, and not only to remember to seek out all these very small positive Oh, me, that's terrific what whatever it is, you can point it out. And that's very important. And so not only remembering to do this, but then using it, knowing that this is worth its weight in gold, for like you said, what's going to happen down the road, they will be able to feel very good about doing the very positive things that bring about the positive side, I know what I was gonna say. So being there is the simplest thing to try to remember. So if the baby does all these things, and you're not there, well, they're not getting that. And so like in the normal, or the original way of bringing up the children, the mother was always there, because that's just the way it was, the mother is there. Now the mother has shown many different places at different times. So wherever you can be there, be there in that first year, just to make sure that you're setting that stage for being appreciative and showing your love for them. Just bringing up that point of what's the mother can do, if she knows it's important to do it,

DJ Stutz  36:37  
right. And just getting that word out. We're coming close to our time. So Dr. Goldberg, can you tell our people and our listeners, if they want to learn more, or get onto your website and get in contact with you? Where do they need to go?

Dr. Sally Goldberg  36:51  
That's a good question too. And before I even say anything like that, I must want to wrap this up in one awareness. And probably you and everybody else listening. Notice that not either you or I mentioned that there was a particular iPad, computer or cell phone that they absolutely had to have for their child so that their child would get these qualities that is missing from our discussion. Yes. Go to me, that speaks volumes, I have always been afraid with all the rise in technology, which is by the minute, you know that it technology is by the minute giving into their lives and affecting them. So with all of that, we could see that sometimes the child will want to turn to that, because that can't yell at them that can't criticize them, that can't say anything. So maybe they're burying themselves in some of this technology, because the human interaction has been decreased so much. So let's leave that as the last guiding thought about how important the time is that parents and the extended family spend with the child, this is the real important input. So how important is to just remember that when you can provide positive reinforcement and positive input, do it. And when you can not carry or keep the baby confined, or not, with you hugging even in any Eslinger in any way. When you can do those positive things, do them when you can't, you can't. But when you can, that is real important message. So after that there is a website, early childhood parenting.net. And there is a name to the company that I have, which is parenting with Dr. Sally. So not only are my most recent books available, there were seven altogether and three remain in a very popular position. And so those are books, and this one being the most recent, which is the fun Baby Learning Games. And that is is a basic handbook for knowing the stages from birth to three and 200 sequenced activities that are particularly chosen to optimize parenting and promote development. So that's the book idea that was the website idea. And then available on request our blog of the month entry which emphasizes a particular concept like this month, which is is love and where love comes from self esteem. First you love yourself, you learn to love yourself, you teach your children to love themselves, and then may live others properly. So a blog post man, a flyer of the month, which can be used in any way with the same concept. So I'm happy to provide all that information, because I want everyone to know these very important things that the whole society, of course, will benefit from, yeah, for generations, for generations, and we need the whole society is not doing that well, now. Our house, he's very needed on this early level.

DJ Stutz  40:41  
Absolutely. Well, Dr. Sally, I warned Jeff, that I always ask my guests the same question at the end of the show. And because we know that there are no perfect parents ever, ever, ever, how would you describe a successful parent,

Dr. Sally Goldberg  40:57  
the successful parent is knowledgeable, I think that knowing that overall umbrella of fair, firm and positive puts you in the driver's seat, you always want to be in the driver's seat, children, you guide and support them in a loving way. And so if you remember that, that's your position. You can think of yourselves as doctors, mom, and dad, the professionals know some input about to give to your child, even go to them for help for any different kinds of reasons. And that's fine. And they'll have good ideas. But when you want the best ideas of all, you go to doctors, Mom and Dad, and they will give you the best advice. So look in here first, before you start going out there to try to think that they may have all the answers, you know, really, really, really do

DJ Stutz  41:52  
for your children. Right? Yeah, that Mama heart and daddy heart is valid all the time. Absolutely. Well, Dr. Sally Goldberg, thank you so much for spending this time with us. I really do appreciate it. All of the great information that you've let us in on and ways that we can contact you. 

So everyone else remember next week, I have this sweet mom, Janet Jones that's going to be joining us and just talking about how do you do it when you're right in the middle of it all with all the kids and expecting more and so it's going to be a really fun conversation. So until next week, let's find joy in parenting. Bye, everyone. Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai